Stock Fuel Rails, why they don’t keep up

[16GoManGoHC2]

@drag racer was asking are you going to 3 pumps and what injectors are next

Maybe add a third pump, a 285 since it has a Check valve and can just sit there not running until needed. Injectors? I’d have to step up to 1700’s which I don’t plan on doing in the near future. She’s good where she’s at for now, I’ll get her by till winter as is. Hopefully lol

 

[16GoManGoHC2]

I'm surprised you have not upgraded those heavy steel idlers pulleys that down spin very well

I bought all 3 from TBA

I have them, in the box with failed bearings, they didn’t last too long for me.

 

[vortecd]

I have them, in the box with failed bearings, they didn’t last too long for me.

Why not send them back to TBA? Mine have been on for 2 years over 15k miles

 

[16GoManGoHC2]

Why not send them back to TBA? Mine have been on for 2 years over 15k miles

Thats why They’re sitting in their boxes LOL I just never found a time to contact them and send them back.
I had blower noise developing once and I put a stethoscope on each one of their mounting bolts and they were the noisy culprits in the belt drive system and I took them out and put the stock ones back in and the noise went away

 

[fumanchu182]

Maybe add a third pump, a 285 since it has a Check valve and can just sit there not running until needed. Injectors? I’d have to step up to 1700’s which I don’t plan on doing in the near future. She’s good where she’s at for now, I’ll get her by till winter as is. Hopefully lol

Your fuel system is not going to keep up. I had a dual system on the returnless and when it hit 23 psi, inj DC skyrocketed and then pump DC went up to compensate. At a minimum, rails and a regulator, ask me how I know.

 

[16GoManGoHC2]

Your fuel system is not going to keep up. I had a dual system on the returnless and when it hit 23 psi, inj DC skyrocketed and then pump DC went up to compensate. At a minimum, rails and a regulator, ask me how I know.

At some point yep, going to need it, but for this year it’s staying where it’s at, I’m tired of working on it this year, fall is fun air, winter will be time for working on it again. I had 4 goals this year, 1000 wheel and mid 5 second 60-130 times, it’s there now, goal 3 a 10 second street pass with no burnout just red light launch, soon a 10 second street 1/4 pass will happen, 4th was another 9 second pass at the track on video, if I take my 17” sticky’s with me and just get a 1.6 60 ft the HP is there to speed into the 9’s from there. Fuel is keeping up good enough for 23 lbs of boost in this air at least, 0 DA and 35F will be a different story though I’m sure.

 

[Speedy!]

I see commanded fuel pressure appears to be bumped a tick. That can work, but also reduces flow so it's a give and take. The pumps are maxed at 89% DC but INJ DC isn't maxed out but close. INJ PW hits 16ms. In a factory tune the bypass will start to open when PW hits 13.7 above 6200 RPM.

Bottom line, you're close but as long as DC stays below 85% and your commanded EQ ratio stays around .81 for E85 I'd just monitor. Cooler air may put you over the limit. You've got some pulley options you could swap to quickly in cool air like a 3.125 or 3.250 which is a lot cheaper/easier than fuel system and injector changes.

 

[16GoManGoHC2]

I see commanded fuel pressure appears to be bumped a tick. That can work, but also reduces flow so it's a give and take. The pumps are maxed at 89% DC but INJ DC isn't maxed out but close. INJ PW hits 16ms. In a factory tune the bypass will start to open when PW hits 13.7 above 6200 RPM.

Bottom line, you're close but as long as DC stays below 85% and your commanded EQ ratio stays around .81 for E85 I'd just monitor. Cooler air may put you over the limit. You've got some pulley options you could swap to quickly in cool air like a 3.125 or 3.250 which is a lot cheaper/easier than fuel system and injector changes.

Agree 100% on all points.
Thing a friend had done with success is hang a third pump off the Fore hat, a 285 which has built in check valve and it can remain off while the dual 295’s do the work 95% of the time and have the 285 come on full blast at 20psi of boost via a boost reference switch. Gave him a good bit of headroom but close to max of what can be delivered through the stock 1/2” OD fuel delivery line. But for the rest of this season this is going to do, consistent sub 5.5 second 60-130 times on the street is plenty good for me for now. I’m happy with it. At first I was having doubt that I should’ve went with the 2.7 instead but I would’ve been turning the shit out of it to get the boost I have now and I’m not really turning this Whipple all that fast to get this boost to make these times which will help it last. And the thing I thought I was going to miss most, the wine and scream of the IHI at 24,000+ rpm, the Whipple sounds almost identical, I was happy to hear, literally lol
These where my 60-130 times 2 years ago with a 2.85 and ID 1050’s, just a wee bit faster now.

 

[Speedy!]

I checked Fore's site and you can do a triple pump "upgrade" to a dual pump system. I'd probably just get a different pulley though and KISS. Depends on how much is never enough though

 

[jonx96]

Might as well as a separate fuel tank for the wet shot

 

[vortecd]

Agree 100% on all points.
Thing a friend had done with success is hang a third pump off the Fore hat, a 285 which has built in check valve and it can remain off while the dual 295’s do the work 95% of the time and have the 285 come on full blast at 20psi of boost via a boost reference switch. Gave him a good bit of headroom but close to max of what can be delivered through the stock 1/2” OD fuel delivery line. But for the rest of this season this is going to do, consistent sub 5.5 second 60-130 times on the street is plenty good for me for now. I’m happy with it. At first I was having doubt that I should’ve went with the 2.7 instead but I would’ve been turning the shit out of it to get the boost I have now and I’m not really turning this Whipple all that fast to get this boost to make these times which will help it last. And the thing I thought I was going to miss most, the wine and scream of the IHI at 24,000+ rpm, the Whipple sounds almost identical, I was happy to hear, literally lol
These where my 60-130 times 2 years ago with a 2.85 and ID 1050’s, just a wee bit faster now.

View attachment 80786

the whipple is a better mouse trap. After messing with the 2.7 you would have upgraded. You just cut out the middle man

 

[16GoManGoHC2]

Might as well as a separate fuel tank for the wet shot

I had one at one time but sold it lol
Still have the nitrous kit though 🤔

 

[16GoManGoHC2]

Well MUCH THANKS to @jonx96 last night for finding and fixing a issue in my tune that would throw the car into limp mode at light throttle and generate a P0607 code that even google searching and Whipple tech support could not fix. GOOD JOB JON!! Netted another person best 60-130 last night, getting closer to the 4’s now!!



And what else did he do while we were at it last night??? Whipped up a quick launch tune and Got me into the 10’s!!!!!!! It still has allot of tweaking needed as I’m spinning like mad still but a 2.2 60ft on the street still netted a 10 second 1/4 finally!!! YAAAAYYYY!!
Party time!! I’m sure 9’s at the track will be no problem!! Issue now is I’m running out of rpm before the 1/4 completes, see the mph knee over at the top? 1/4 speed could actually be faster as I slowed down before crossing the line. Guess time to up the rpm limiter a bit so I can stretch it out a hair more up top. Or go back to the 3.73 rear but that may slow the cars acceleration in 3rd and 4th, don’t want that!! Unfortunately I ran the battery dead on the Draggy so the 10.8 isn’t on the Draggy, ran my laptop dead so couldn’t try another launch tune Jon concocted quick, the my phone died, and finally I was out of fuel lol 1/4 tank sent me home finally around 11, with a BIG SMILE though!!


So, it seems I’ve met goals 3 of the 4 goals I’ve been wanting to accomplish this year, only one left is 9 second passes at the track on video. Stay tuned!! (Or see @jonx96 to get yours
THANKS AGAIN JON!!!!🤜🏼🤛🏼

 

[16GoManGoHC2]

And she’s running pretty clean too, weird fuel seems to keep up a hair better around 1/2 tank??
My 60-130 runs are started at around 55 mph, so it’s not a come up on it flying already 60-130 run, I need to try that and see if maybe that nets a 4 second pass!!
Here in the HP tuners graph can be seen the starting point is around 55, throttle voltage is just hitting max right at 56 mph. Near no STKR even exceeding 23 lbs of boost, look at that 2.70 Pressure Ratio and 2200+ Air Charge!! Remember this is just a RedEye cam on stock un ported cylinder heads with JBA 1 7/8” shorty headers THROUGH CATS and stock exhaust!!



Notice in graph at bottom 2 more pulls right after the 5.22 60-130 run, they where the 10.8 and 11.05 1/4 runs, no cool down, hot lapping. STKR there in third is a bit of tip in issue but the timing pulled there brought it back down to normal timing path numbers, not worrying me, let’s me know the knock sensors are doing there job and settings are on the cusp of where they should be. I’m HAPPY!!

 

[Jack_Toepfer]

Can you take a video of your 60-130 please?
Maybe cut out the minute between 3rd and 4th… but share the rest?
lol, jk bud. You’re rocking with an M6… not a lot of guys can say that. You need to get a head of steam going into that and run it out the back door. I’d imagine the 1/4 mi runs you’re doing would have your best 60-130.

 

[16GoManGoHC2]

Can you take a video of your 60-130 please?
Maybe cut out the minute between 3rd and 4th… but share the rest?
lol, jk bud. You’re rocking with an M6… not a lot of guys can say that. You need to get a head of steam going into that and run it out the back door. I’d imagine the 1/4 mi runs you’re doing would have your best 60-130.

THANKS Jack!! I’ve been taking it easy on the trans, no speed shifting, yet lol. A No Lift Shift is going to help that out in the future 😆

In actuality my 60-130 times are slower 2-3-4 verses just 3-4, that extra shift costs time. It may be quicker in the 60-70 range but the shift 2-3 costs time, see here in a 60-130 snippet from a 1/4 run. But I can start out sooner in third, like 35 mph as she has the torque even from 1500 rpm
In third to start pulling hard by 45-50 to gain some momentum in passing the 60 start mark, but I feel that’s cheating lol.



See the difference in the 60-70 and 60-80 times?



I’ll have my boy go with me for a video, my phone mounted on a dash mount either flys off from the almost 1 G pulling or is shaking so bad the video is a mess, but I’ll get something in the near future so she can be heard as well.

 

[16GoManGoHC2]

Dyno’d the beast last night. First pull was 1,041 HP 914 Tq, stepped up the timing a small amount here and there and next pull was 1077 Hp 933 Tq which spun on the dyno up top. Left it there and called it a happy day


Did a 60-130 hit on the way home, wiggled, shimmied, and spun about the entire way to 130, was a hold on tight white knuckle five and a half seconds lol.


MUCH THANKS to @jonx96 for excellent tuning and support through this endeavor to get to my goals of 1000+ wheel in any DA, sub 6 second 60-130 runs in any DA, and the hardest a 10 second 1/4 on the street looking totally stock on 20” Brass Monkey rims and 305 Nitto DR’s with no burn out just launch.
THANKS Jon👍👍

 

[Speedy!]

Exceeded your goal. Congrats!

 

[jonx96]

When I saw the 1041 I was kind of hoping for a 1100 Maybe with out the dyno spin one day

 

[jonx96]

O also we need bigger injectors in that thing!