"Project Demons Breath"

[Speedy!]

I'm not sure VE will even work on these cars. On my 2009 it was ignored when we tried and used NN even though disabled.

 

[Hpindy]

At some point does it make more sense to disable NN and use VE? Or is that cheating and the best thing to do is learn NN?

Good rule of thumb for VE vs NN is that if you have changed displacement VE should be the way forward. As an example I’m using NN right now and I’ve seen 18lbs of boost on my pulley. The injectors and timing were scaled appropriately so the interpolation engine in NN can make the correct decisions.

I'm not sure VE will even work on these cars. On my 2009 it was ignored when we tried and used NN even though disabled.

That's a tough call and out side my knowledge base . In my opinion keeping the IHI and a reasonable camshaft I don't think I would need to disable ANN and go to VE . Maybe a very radical combinations might need to but im not sure .

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[jonx96]

So I hope this doesn't take your build thread in a wrong direction maybe it'll turn into It's own thread.
There is very limited information on ANN in hp tuners forums. But it seems most say VE isn't used at all if NN is enabled. I have heard others say they don't believe that.
I believe VE has to be used to a point. Which the stock VE table is hideous but I think NN corrects it.
An artificial neural network isn't just something Dodge invented. Most of us IT people know that.
Definition - Typically, an ANN is initially trained or fed large amounts of data. Training consists of providing input and telling the network what the output should be. (TechTarget)
We know injector data plays a big role in making the Neural Network work properly and is a part of the training data the definition speaks of.
But looking at the NN Tab there is this table:
"[ECM] 3398 - VE Max Training Value: Maximum Training Value for Volumetric Efficiency for Neural Network." (There is also a min table)
Is the neural network smart enough to handle these basic changes we are talking about? I would think so. Well we know so since it has been done time and time again.
Is the nerdy tech side in me going to research Neural Networks more and play around about? Absolutely. I may also play with the VE table a bit. VE tables aren't anything difficult just takes time.

Ok that's just me talking out loud.

 

[Hpindy]

So I hope this doesn't take your build thread in a wrong direction maybe it'll turn into It's own thread.
There is very limited information on ANN in hp tuners forums. But it seems most say VE isn't used at all if NN is enabled. I have heard others say they don't believe that.
I believe VE has to be used to a point. Which the stock VE table is hideous but I think NN corrects it.
An artificial neural network isn't just something Dodge invented. Most of us IT people know that.
Definition - Typically, an ANN is initially trained or fed large amounts of data. Training consists of providing input and telling the network what the output should be. (TechTarget)
We know injector data plays a big role in making the Neural Network work properly and is a part of the training data the definition speaks of.
But looking at the NN Tab there is this table:
"[ECM] 3398 - VE Max Training Value: Maximum Training Value for Volumetric Efficiency for Neural Network." (There is also a min table)
Is the neural network smart enough to handle these basic changes we are talking about? I would think so. Well we know so since it has been done time and time again.
Is the nerdy tech side in me going to research Neural Networks more and play around about? Absolutely. I may also play with the VE table a bit. VE tables aren't anything difficult just takes time.

Ok that's just me talking out loud.

Good insight and I agree .

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[Bowtie Guy]

Question Oh B 1 Ka No bee

A friend is building a 65 Polara with a 2015 Hellcat motor
He has the car tuned & is having issues
He plugged into my car & downloaded my stock tune to see if he can make adjustments to his

Is there any adverse affects that can cause my car ?

I m a beer drinker not an electrical wizard
&
I effin kill him if something happens

He told me nothing will happen

 

[Hpindy]

Question Oh B 1 Ka No bee

A friend is building a 65 Polara with a 2015 Hellcat motor
He has the car tuned & is having issues
He plugged into my car & downloaded my stock tune to see if he can make adjustments to his

Is there any adverse affects that can cause my car ?

I m a beer drinker not an electrical wizard
&
I effin kill him if something happens

He told me nothing will happen

No nothing will happen to your car what so ever on a "read" . That is just looking at the current calibration and copying it . No harm no fowl.

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[Bowtie Guy]

No nothing will happen to your car what so ever on a "read" . That is just looking at the current calibration and copying it . No harm no fowl.

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Thank you sir
He came over 4 days ago & its been raining every since so it s been bugging me

 

[Hpindy]

Thank you sir
He came over 4 days ago & its been raining every since so it s been bugging me

I hear ya . Wondering about the "unknown " will drive a man to drink !

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[Bowtie Guy]

I hear ya . Wondering about the "unknown " will drive a man to drink !

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Don t take much to drive me

 

[Hpindy]

Well boys and girls the hockey season has started again ! Woohoo my son is back at the rink and tonight is his first official season game in over a year . This means away tournaments and beer and wings before every game !

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[Hpindy]

Here is a quick hit last night . Unfortunately my bypass valve opened for some reason so I have to figure that out .

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[Hpindy]

More tuning . This time on pump gas

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[Speedy!]

It's definitely gulping in some air. The aircharge is more than I've seen on a Demon with a Whipple.

 

[Hpindy]

It's definitely gulping in some air. The aircharge is more than I've seen on a Demon with a Whipple.

When I select parts I put a lot of though in to each and every part. It took me a long time to come up with a cam profile. Some times I win and some times I don't. I`m working for maximum efficiency. .

 

[Hpindy]

So far so good. still tuning.

 

[jonx96]

So far so good. still tuning. View attachment 55954

Judging by the log I’m assuming you are tuning VE. Are you doing this and still going to ANN or just VE?

 

[fumanchu182]

2.19 pratio is a lot of air. ~17 lbs of boost. If the fuel tables on the VE side were causing it to run lean maybe thats why they opened was my initial thought but you are .85 lambda so you have plenty of fuel.

 

[Hpindy]

I'm tuning with VE only now . I turned ANN off . With the new camshaft and it being locked it was causing me all kids of issues . I could never fine tune my car . The manufacturer uses ANN because of VVT . In ANN there is many VE tables because of the cam moving around . I believe the hellcat platform has atleast 5 VE tables that I heard of plus other factors . And all off them we can't see .
So I turned off ANN and started using VE only and the car is running fantastic now as you can tell from my aircharge. I have to do 5th gear pulls "in Mexico" to get decent data logs because the blows the tires off in 4th up to 5500 rpms . It get a bit scary at those speeds .
I also replaced my 274 fuel pumps with 285 pumps . . With FIC 1440 injectors and (2) 285 pumps I have all the fuel I need for my car even on E95. ( remember street car not race car)
Also think about this for a minute...... I have a 2.7L supercharger that is ported and a 105mm throttle body wit a 10% lower and a 3.17 upper and my Pratio is 2.19 ( 17 psi of boost) . My "boost pressure " is lower then normal but my aircharge is up substantially . That shows I am making the engine more efficient .
On another note my car is less prone to "false knock " it seems then with the factory demon cam and ANN turned on. I left my spark tables alone from before and I'm slow creeping up on the timing 1/2 degree at a time and so far it's liking the extra timing . Even with 2285 aircharge!
I'm tuning on straight pump gas at the moment and I usually run conservative .
I'm really glad I forged my bottom end lol!

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[Hpindy]

Well I finally made it to the track today with @moparjim , @DemonSRT , @oilburner .
I had a lot of issues. My transmission was not happy . I would get a wonky 1-2 shift and it would refuse the complete the 2-3 shift . It would just hang on the rev limiter . I only got one complete pass ( with shift issues)
Not my best pass but on pump gas it went 145 mph ! (9.76) .

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[Speedy!]

Wonder what's up with the trans?