Active Interchiller Feedback

[OGTRIPLEOG]

This is what you’d be looking for (see 2 black arrows).

 

[fubar569]

As much as I would love to be able to look I know that my Flex tune is locked which is fine because I don't need to be messing with it. I believe my E85 race tune or some version of it that I have is unlocked though. If I remember tonight I'll take a peek and check those values.

 

[OGTRIPLEOG]

totally understand and much appreciated.

 

[fubar569]

Fired up the tablet and for what files were unlocked that I have access to...it appears that both P/N and Drive AC target idles are set to 750 (752 technically) at temperature. They start much higher during warmup. 1000 to 1300 depending on temp and condition.

I may have deleted all old copies of my open tune files because tbh I messed with them too much and always went back to the known good anyways. If I can't 100% trust my guy I shouldn't be paying him to do it in the first place.

 

[Unholy707]

Got it. I have a true flex fuel, adjusts on the fly (Satera tuning). Does not seem fuel dependent (has happened with 93 and as high as e74%). If anyone can look at their tune and check if the idle RPM is adjusted up when the AC comes on that would be helpful. Basically, I don’t have any reason to believe there is a mechanical issue, or issue with the chiller. Temps are consistent, condenser does not make any noise when it comes on. Have not checked Freon charge, but I suspect it to be within normal range. Only surrogate that something mechanical could be off is the stalls related to AC on. As mentioned, it’s not immediate and not everytime. But only happen with AC on.

I’m not sure if changing idle Rpm is within normal limits after chillers go in. im familiar with only a few tune changes relative to chiller install — namely fuel adjustment on warm start to compensate for condensation dripping onto the cylinders when I/C drops below dew point and fan speed adjustments. Had not heard of what the tuner wants to try.. so I just wanted to see if anyone had heard of this.

How long have you been having this problem? As long as you’ve had the tune?

 

[Unholy707]

And you have a separate e85 gauge in the car, correct?

 

[OGTRIPLEOG]

Thanks @fubar569 . That all describes my current tune as well (starts higher, settles to 752). I don’t think what he’s suggesting is a typical modification with interchillers. The owners of IC Summit/Charly have previously helped others on hellcat.org even with other applications. I wish I had there’s, but I had already purchased this one before I found out they were in the game. The AI brand for all its customer service aggregation seems to be working just (3 way bypass and comp switch all work as intnded, chiller does its thing with AC on, air is still cold, etc).. But the owner unfortunately is not someone I’d voluntarily ring to trouble shoot with. I may PM summit/Charlie on hellcat, I don’t wanna start a thread as Satera’s has a vender account on there, I don’t wanna take a chance they see the post questioning what they’re suggesting and feel slighted.

hey @Unholy707 Yes, digital sensor for ethanol. Satera said the fuel trims are all perfect. Over my last xx fill ups (maybe the last 7-8 in a row all on e70-74 at same station). He wasn’t happy with my first pump 93 fill up. But since then, he said everything looks perfect from fueling standpoint. The tune adjusts on the fly within the first few min driving. Issue has been happening since I got the jeep back from them (June). Took me some time sorting through all the variables, but I can say with complete confidence the dependent one is the AC on. Like I said, it’s not like AC on, 3 seconds later = stall. But if I drive with AC on for a week, it’ll stall 4-5 times under those conditions (off throttle, 1–10 mph and also in reverse).

Had many things done at the appointment (added the hellion, now compound boosted, interchiller as you guys now of via this thread, and flex fuel tune are the main things). I also arranged for my IGLA to upgraded there to include the anti-carjack feature. have ruled out with complete certainty that being amiss. It functions exactly as expected, and the stalls neither have the preceding warning signs that come with the anti-car jack feature being set off nor do I have to re-enter the pin after the stall (it fires back up once I just get it back to park since I carry my I’ll fob on me). When the anti car jack is set off, it will not restart without the code (even if the igla fob is inside the car). So, all things considered we’re confident not igla related.

Besides something AC or interchiller related, I was wondering about the torque converter.. but the transmission as a whole seems fine. No sounds either. And doing a pull, transmission is good weather it’s with paddle shifters, street or sport trans profile.. Even had the boost controller up to 19-20 PSI once or twice for a 60 roll pull (roughly 900-950 whp) and engine/trans smooth and consistent. So given that, I’ve been trying not to totally freak out. But, it’s a bit odd getting used to random stalls especially when they happen as your in traffic it’s a bit unnerving.

 

[Unholy707]

I installed IC chillers kit without touching tune. It doesn’t do anything, you’ll have the same load from ac compressor without it.

 

[OGTRIPLEOG]

Hear you. I thought so too. I dunno.. as you guys know, at the mercy of the tuner and Satera doesn’t go into any more detail than he has to when he sends me a new tune. He confirms my data log’s are good quality and then sends me a new tune. I have captured the stall on data log at least once, unfortunaty did not find a tune related reason for them. At one point he was concerned the 93 tank I filled damage something. But since driving that off and getting high % E in, he said trims are back around the goal 5% for all the scenarios I put the jeep through in the dozen plus logs since.

The two tuners between hear and hellcat.org that I see come up over and over are jon moored and OST. I think AJ Berg is also quite knowledgeable. I’m in Boston, so he’s only 4ish hours from me. I have strongly considered asking someone to take a look, but I don’t know how to initiate that convo. I also would need to review the terms of service as Satera’s tunes i believe are his property.

 

[OGTRIPLEOG]

I installed IC chillers kit without touching tune. It doesn’t do anything, you’ll have the same load from ac compressor without it.

Hear you. I thought the AC compressor coming on does introduce an additional load on the engine? (Presumably why engine idle with AC in all the shift positions even exists for modifying in the tune?)

 

[Unholy707]

It does, but I’m saying chiller or no chiller it’s the same load from the compressor

 

[covidcommander]

Hear you. I thought the AC compressor coming on does introduce an additional load on the engine? (Presumably why engine idle with AC in all the shift positions even exists for modifying in the tune?)

I was thinking of them for a flex tune when the time comes. Heard they are pretty pricey there. Doesn't seem like they did the tune right. I'm not a tuner but I'm pretty sure all the ic does is add volume to the ac system. It's still pumping the same amount, there's just more quanity. Should not just stall cause you added more capacity to the ac system. Something else happening

 

[OGTRIPLEOG]

Guys, thank you for your time and input so far.

One other variable. the freon was recharged at a DCJR dealership local to them (Satera does not recharge). They only use this dealership, so there is a relationship there and familiarity with getting challengers/chargers/trackhawk builds. The instructions mentioned how much extra freon to add, but most likely that information was not passed on to the dealer. If the dealership overcharged the freon, any chance that could contribute to more drag on the engine when AC comes on? In case relevant, if my in-cabin air was any colder I'd be at risk for frostbite.

@Unholy707 and @covidcommander got you, makes sense. Yes CC, they are very expensive. And their labor rates went up a few months ago ($190 I believe). You must send your vehicle there for flex fuel (no remote version offered). I don't wanna openly comment on my experience.

Turned the AC on today during a highway drive. first time turning AC on in probably 10 days (of which as mentioned, no stalls during that time). Park to run in to grab something from the store, come back out not more than 1-2 minutes later, start the car, stall x2 immediately after engine turns over (still in park). Have to give immediate throttle to avoid stalling on the 3rd time (in park). This was IMO the known issue of condensation dripping onto cylinder after parking as my IC temps were below dew point while on the highway so I'm sure I was accumulating water on the bricks. I need to ask Satera to add some fuel to the start up table, I believe this typically solves that issue. I have experienced this version of stall several times this summer. To prevent the engine from immediately dying after it cranks on, immediately giving 1-2 part throttles (still in park) seems to keeps the engine running. As far as prevention, as long as I shut the AC off and let the IC coolant temps come up above dew point, then subsequent warm starts and idle are fine (I forgot to do that today, was picking up e98 pails so little bit pre-occupied).

So on that note... I wonder if there is a chance intercooler bricks are accumulating too much condensation while driving around with the chiller/AC. My IC temps consistently drop to 59-60F when regular chiller/cabin mode. I wonder if on days the dew point is above 59-60F, is it possible at low speeds too much condensation is getting into cylinders when my speed slows to 1-9 mph range toward a stop (that is when the stalls happen), and causing the stall? If so, like you guys are saying.. the tune and fueling is insufficient for this scenario. If this is what's happening, I wonder why it doesn't happen to all chiller users given chillers do not require tune changes to safely operate.

Now that I'm 100% confident stalls are somehow related to the chiller being on, will try to correlate the dew point and I/C coolant temps with the low speed stalls. If I can correlate that the low speed stalls happen only when the IC coolant temp dips below the dew point, maybe I need to ask if there is a parameter to add fuel to all relevant tables when the I/C coolant goes below say 65F just to be safe. If I can correlate the dew point theory and replicate with both pump E85 and pump 93, I think that will further support this theory. Still, would be weird that it's only happening to me and not all chiller users.

Of note, still have not uploaded the last tune he sent with the higher idle for AC compressor on.

Welcome any other ideas on sorting through the variables.

 

[Unholy707]

Dew point is above 70 here all the time and I’ve never had that happen. I let the IC coolant get up to temp before shutting off the car.

 

[OGTRIPLEOG]

Dew point is above 70 here all the time and I’ve never had that happen. I let the IC coolant get up to temp before shutting off the car.

Right.. this is exactly why my theory is probably not what’s happening. Every chiller application would suffer this issue. As you can see, I’m grasping at straws.

I can say with complete confidence the conditions introduced when the AC is turned is creating a discrepancy that isn’t accounted for in the tune. Whether it’s the resulting IC coolant or IAT temps, or AC unit itself. The last 10 days with AC off is the only 10 day stretch since taking delivery in June without a stall, sputter, or near stall.

One thing I’m trying to take solace in is through all of this, no misfires when I check DTCs. No codes except for P032F. Which I believe is generic and non-specific.

 

[OGTRIPLEOG]

Today marks 7 days straight of AC on. Daily driving, e67. No stalls and no near stalls. So that’s 10 days straight AC off no stalls, then 7 days straight AC on no stalls or near stalls. Maybe I’m out of the woods? Longest stretch so far.

Few changed variables from the summer when I was having this happen all the time are less humid and cooler temps, and new battery. We put in an H8 oddessey last month, and maybe more importantly it has been properly maintained via daily driving during these last 17 days. What’s interesting is within the first week of new battery, I still had 2 stalls during driving in the typical off throttle/low speed situations and once in reverse. So I was a little discouraged the battery wasn’t the fix, not that I was putting too many eggs in that basket. Since daily driving (and cooler weather) no issues. I wonder if something in the ECM was constantly being reset and having to be re-learned (idle tables?) due to the dying oem battery not maintaining enough voltage during start up (Satera pointed the low V during cranking) or dipping too low inbetween driving days (no battery maintainer).

So even though had a few stalls the first few times out after the new battery, maybe I wasn’t outta the woods from whatever was happening?
So bizarre.

In other news, added 2 pails of e98 to my tank today. brought me to 84%, highest I’ve been to. Set the boost controller to 22-23 psi for the first time and did a mild pull off a roll. Everything felt good. Transmission continues to feel smooth and responsive.

If stall issue passes, for all the friction we had during the build it’ll be a relief to finally be on the other side of this. I never loaded his last tune that would have raised idle RPM with AC on. Assuming it’s not the fall weather change, I’ll have to assume it was the battery (and credit to him for pointing out the voltage drop during cranking). Fingers crosssed. I’ll continue to update if you guys are interested.