CAMSHAFT SPECS.....Hard numbers.

[coolblue]

I'm curious on cam specs for Hellcat/Demon. I need a watermark to go by. I've seen a lot of interesting threads on cam's but no real FULL spec cam card type numbers. I also know the hellcat has VVT of @37 degrees(at least from '17 up) but from what I can surmise, that is TOTAL correct? Meaning it's @17/18 deg on either side of the lobe center line. Is that correct? So if the "straight up" number on the intake is 215,does that mean at max rpm (@6000) she does the VVT thing and now the lobe is at a readjusted 232?
The reason I ask is that I DON'T have VVT on my blown '09 6.1, but what cam would I have to run (more or less) to get the same power at max rpm?
The way I'm reading this is I know I can't have both (with no VVT) so I'd have to put up with lost power on bottom to make up on top, but what specs would I need to be in HC ball park.
Also, what were the specs on early HC's before VVT or were they all released with it.

 

[Hpindy]

All I got for you is the specs of the stock 2015-2017 hellcat camshaft .

215/223@.050
.561/.551
120.5 lsa

Hope this helps

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[motorhead]

Specs:
https://www.hotrod.com/articles/inside-the-hellcat-hemi-v8/

How VVT effects the cam:
https://forum.hptuners.com/showthread.php?77372-Can-timing

Long story short without VVT you will be locked at the base specs ground into the cam. So the last thing you want, unless it suits your build, is to be married to a small cam. The benefit of the VVT in the supercharged 6.2 is that it can theoretically turn a 215/223 (I believe this advertised duration) cam into a 252/260 cam holding the valves open longer for better cylinder filling. Far too many people get hung up on gross lift and duration, and less about the low and mid-lift numbers where the valve passes through twice. The stock HC heads flow around 340cfm at .600" lift on the intake, yet the cam is ground with .040" less lift. The gains obviously aren't there versus what is achievable with duration. This is where aftermarket cams come up short as they have more base duration and lift ground into them, requiring that phase limiters be added to avoid piston to valve (PTV) issues. You can plot the stock cam profile with the VVT figures versus an aftermarket cam, and it will show you that the area under the curve (flow potential) is higher with the stock cam without any of the drawbacks of the aftermarket cam (idle issues (durr... durr... dat chop), high strung, limited duration, custom valvetrain parts, PTC problems, ramp rates, etc).

This is why small shop vendors are so secretive with their cam information (even worse than the LS world was 10 years ago) and offering no advertised specs, and throttling back the advance/retard in the tune and/or using a phase limiter.

iTz PrOpRiEtAry!

Best I can tell there isn't a single aftermarket 6.2L cam available through normal commerical means:
https://www.summitracing.com/int/se...s/make/dodge/engine-family/mopar-hemi-gen-iii

So just buy the one that best suits your needs, and don't handcuff yourself to stock junk.

 

[TMAC]

When I got my OST Dyno Demon plus cam and kit, part of the kit was a 'modified' VVT mechanism.

https://shop.ostdyno.com/shop/shop/...cat-demon/6-2-supercharged-camshaft-packages/

 

[Hpindy]

Specs:
https://www.hotrod.com/articles/inside-the-hellcat-hemi-v8/

How VVT effects the cam:
https://forum.hptuners.com/showthread.php?77372-Can-timing

Long story short without VVT you will be locked at the base specs ground into the cam. So the last thing you want, unless it suits your build, is to be married to a small cam. The benefit of the VVT in the supercharged 6.2 is that it can theoretically turn a 215/223 (I believe this advertised duration) cam into a 252/260 cam holding the valves open longer for better cylinder filling. Far too many people get hung up on gross lift and duration, and less about the low and mid-lift numbers where the valve passes through twice. The stock HC heads flow around 340cfm at .600" lift on the intake, yet the cam is ground with .040" less lift. The gains obviously aren't there versus what is achievable with duration. This is where aftermarket cams come up short as they have more base duration and lift ground into them, requiring that phase limiters be added to avoid piston to valve (PTV) issues. You can plot the stock cam profile with the VVT figures versus an aftermarket cam, and it will show you that the area under the curve (flow potential) is higher with the stock cam without any of the drawbacks of the aftermarket cam (idle issues (durr... durr... dat chop), high strung, limited duration, custom valvetrain parts, PTC problems, ramp rates, etc).

This is why small shop vendors are so secretive with their cam information (even worse than the LS world was 10 years ago) and offering no advertised specs, and throttling back the advance/retard in the tune and/or using a phase limiter.

iTz PrOpRiEtAry!

Best I can tell there isn't a single aftermarket 6.2L cam available through normal commerical means:
https://www.summitracing.com/int/se...s/make/dodge/engine-family/mopar-hemi-gen-iii

So just buy the one that best suits your needs, and don't handcuff yourself to stock junk.

I was never a big "off the shelf" cam person. I always had custom ground cams for all my engines ....... Except this one.
The specs I post above are for a stock 2015-2017 hellcat . In 2018 they "refined" them ( weaker!) I'm still trying to get the specs for that cam now . An impressive stock cam shaft is the demon .

223/240@.050
.561/.551
123 LSA

I really like the VVT . Nice street ability with mid range and top end all in one package . In the future when I do a custom grind I will take full advantage of the VVT.

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[coolblue]

Specs:
https://www.hotrod.com/articles/inside-the-hellcat-hemi-v8/

How VVT effects the cam:
https://forum.hptuners.com/showthread.php?77372-Can-timing

Long story short without VVT you will be locked at the base specs ground into the cam. So the last thing you want, unless it suits your build, is to be married to a small cam. The benefit of the VVT in the supercharged 6.2 is that it can theoretically turn a 215/223 (I believe this advertised duration) cam into a 252/260 cam holding the valves open longer for better cylinder filling. Far too many people get hung up on gross lift and duration, and less about the low and mid-lift numbers where the valve passes through twice. The stock HC heads flow around 340cfm at .600" lift on the intake, yet the cam is ground with .040" less lift. The gains obviously aren't there versus what is achievable with duration. This is where aftermarket cams come up short as they have more base duration and lift ground into them, requiring that phase limiters be added to avoid piston to valve (PTV) issues. You can plot the stock cam profile with the VVT figures versus an aftermarket cam, and it will show you that the area under the curve (flow potential) is higher with the stock cam without any of the drawbacks of the aftermarket cam (idle issues (durr... durr... dat chop), high strung, limited duration, custom valvetrain parts, PTC problems, ramp rates, etc).

This is why small shop vendors are so secretive with their cam information (even worse than the LS world was 10 years ago) and offering no advertised specs, and throttling back the advance/retard in the tune and/or using a phase limiter.

iTz PrOpRiEtAry!

Best I can tell there isn't a single aftermarket 6.2L cam available through normal commerical means:
https://www.summitracing.com/int/se...s/make/dodge/engine-family/mopar-hemi-gen-iii

So just buy the one that best suits your needs, and don't handcuff yourself to stock junk.

That makes total sense. I can definitely see the cam staying deeper in phase with lower lift to not hit piston (and yes duration IS more important...< lift also easier on valvetrain components for sure). Did NOT think the 37 degree adjustability was on either side of the center line(incredible).Also, would not have ever of thought about them having to pull phase to not hit pistons with bigger cam and deleting the "advantage" of bigness...bigger...more... You know what I mean.
So in short, to make @ the same max power I only gotta run a 250+ degree cam. Good for cruising, gas mileage and basic grocery getting with my antiquated old school motor. No problem.
P.S. thanks for not sending a link to the burning properties/ flash point of propane, meth and liquid nitro. Sometimes I'm scared to click on your shit. Ever have the men in black knock on your door in the middle of the night just to see if your home? LOL.
Thanks a bunch.

 

[coolblue]

I was never a big "off the shelf" cam person. I always had custom ground cams for all my engines ....... Except this one.
The specs I post above are for a stock 2015-2017 hellcat . In 2018 they "refined" them ( weaker!) I'm still trying to get the specs for that cam now . An impressive stock cam shaft is the demon .

223/240@.050
.561/.551
123 LSA

I really like the VVT . Nice street ability with mid range and top end all in one package . In the future when I do a custom grind I will take full advantage of the VVT.

Sent from my BBF100-2 using Tapatalk

Thanks Hpindy. Just got home from work about an hour ago. Appreciate the good info. I actually never saw any specs on the Demon cam. But again, it all gets registered in the noggi'n as reference. And unfortunately I do not have VVT on the 6.1 but it's still useful info to work with. Thank you.

 

[GenF-GTS]

Does anyone know the actual advertised duration, ICL and LSA not the at 50thou specs
From this you can then work out the valve events.

 

[GenF-GTS]

Looks like I may have found it via a few sources.

I 278
E 304
LSA 120.5
ICL 120.5

If these specs are correct the valve events are:

IVO is 18.5 ° BTDC ( - indicates ATDC)
IVC is 79.5 ° ABDC
EVO is 92.5 ° BBDC
EVC is 31.5 ° ATDC ( - indicates BTDC)
Overlap is 50 °

Variable camshaft timing (VCT) with 37 degrees of authority via electronically controlled lube circuit: https://www.hotrod.com/articles/we-take-a-hard-look-at-dodges-paradigm-shifting-707hp-hellcat-hemi/

 

[coolblue]

Looks like I may have found it via a few sources.

I 278
E 304
LSA 120.5
ICL 120.5

If these specs are correct the valve events are:

IVO is 18.5 ° BTDC ( - indicates ATDC)
IVC is 79.5 ° ABDC
EVO is 92.5 ° BBDC
EVC is 31.5 ° ATDC ( - indicates BTDC)
Overlap is 50 °

Variable camshaft timing (VCT) with 37 degrees of authority via electronically controlled lube circuit: https://www.hotrod.com/articles/we-take-a-hard-look-at-dodges-paradigm-shifting-707hp-hellcat-hemi/

Thanks for the input.
The number I find amazing is the ICL. In the "old" days 106 to 108 was the norm. I don't have as much of a problem wrapping my head around the average 117 to 121 LSA's they're running today, I get it, trapping blower compression, smoothness and emissions concerns etc. Again, that still seems very wide to me (110-114 average norm in "old" days) But I haven't figured out the reason behind the fat ICL's or why they work.

 

[Hpindy]

Thanks for the input.
The number I find amazing is the ICL. In the "old" days 106 to 108 was the norm. I don't have as much of a problem wrapping my head around the average 117 to 121 LSA's they're running today, I get it, trapping blower compression, smoothness and emissions concerns etc. Again, that still seems very wide to me (110-114 average norm in "old" days) But I haven't figured out the reason behind the fat ICL's or why they work.

I built a few 6.1 hemis . I used 112-113 lsa on N/A engines and 116 or more on boosted engines . I always tried to keep the lift around .600 on all engines . And duration would very depending on application. ( CID, max rpm , street or race, etc).

Hope this helps

James

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[coolblue]

I built a few 6.1 hemis . I used 112-113 lsa on N/A engines and 116 or more on boosted engines . I always tried to keep the lift around .600 on all engines . And duration would very depending on application. ( CID, max rpm , street or race, etc).

Hope this helps

James

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Helps a lot, thanks. Can you go .600 on lift on a stock 6.1 heads without hitting the guides? I know springs have to change.
I also read somewhere you can't go past @ 218 deg on intake duration if you pass .570 lift even on a straight up cam (Meaning 0 up on installation and non- VVT) or you will hit pistons. Don't know how true that is.

 

[TMAC]

There's power to be had in having the Apache Hellcat/Demon cylinder heads CNC ported. The stock castings will flow ~ 340 cfm, but they hit that flow number (335 cfm) at .500" valve lift and it doesn't improve even to .700" lift.
So the port flow goes static at about that lift (.500"). This is a big reason lots of guys cam their car and don't see a significant increase in power. The intake ports need work to allow the new cam to do its job.

My opinion, you need to CNC port the heads if you put a cam in the car. Otherwise, the cam will be mostly for idle sound only. You won't gain anything significant at the tire because additional lift and duration can't add airflow. The port is a restriction past .500" valve lift.

 

[SunnyS]

Interesting read.Are there a set of heads or a shop that will give the hellcat a significant edge in HP? Seems this is a area that is not as traveled as the LS guys.

 

[TMAC]

Interesting read.Are there a set of heads or a shop that will give the hellcat a significant edge in HP? Seems this is a area that is not as traveled as the LS guys.

I had the BES pro-port work done to my heads. Its a CNC port.
For aftermarket heads look no farther that Thitek.

 

[SunnyS]

I had the BES pro-port work done to my heads. Its a CNC port.
For aftermarket heads look no farther that Thitek.

What are we talking Hp wise with either combination.

 

[TMAC]

The CNC port is generally rated at 25 RWHP. I assume that's for a completely stock engine, but don't know that for sure. Cost is around $1700, plus shipping back and forth. Since the head is completely dis-assembled, now is the time to do the spring and retainer swap.
A full on set of complete custom Thitek's, ready to bolt on, will set you back in the $3500-$3700 range.
Hard to say how much additional power these would be worth because its totally dependent on the specifics of the shortblock they would go on. Suffice to say, its probably triple the CNC stockers. On a very hi end build, likely more.

 

[SunnyS]

Ok now I see why heads are at the bottom of the things to do list with those lower HP increases per dollar spent.Really just shows that the stock heads are pretty well perfect but can offer some more gains in that search for the really big HP numbers.

 

[Hpindy]

Helps a lot, thanks. Can you go .600 on lift on a stock 6.1 heads without hitting the guides? I know springs have to change.
I also read somewhere you can't go past @ 218 deg on intake duration if you pass .570 lift even on a straight up cam (Meaning 0 up on installation and non- VVT) or you will hit pistons. Don't know how true that is.

Yes I have a few times . I currently have a car I'm working on with a Howard's cams 227/234@.050 with .600/.600 116 lsa and runs great . I am using PSI springs on all my builds .

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[coolblue]

Yes I have a few times . I currently have a car I'm working on with a Howard's cams 227/234@.050 with .600/.600 116 lsa and runs great . I am using PSI springs on all my builds .

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Thanks James. That's the goods right there.(That, yes you have run .600 lift with 220+ and no problems with interference on stock guides) YOU DA' MAN! Lol.
Thank you very much!, Tony.